Re: [WorldCitizen] Re: is capitalism permanent ?Wednesday, 23 September, 2009 10:37 PM

Re: [WorldCitizen] Re: is capitalism permanent ?Wednesday, 23 September, 2009 10:37 PM
From: "ayub mohammed" View contact detailsTo: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.comDear jim,

I give u Para -wise replies on the questions u raised in a good faith on the opinion of Mr. Gary, in the following manner.





Jim;- “It certainly could be a problem as you suggest. It depends on how a fully automated system is shaped.”



Ayub:-Automated system itself has been generated to serve the master of its own at the lowest cost of the individual human being who will demand more than the machine. So they opt the machinery. And I suggest here to them to opt more machinery in their lives than the humans who would never serve more than the machinery.

jim:- ”On the one hand, all the money could go to the owners of the automated corporations, and then they would hire everyone else as personal servants. for the pleasure of having personal servants to control. A corporations owner could employ a dozen or so gardeners, a dozen or so maids, etc”.



Ayub:-yeah let them hire to their level from gardening to bedroom by as many as the humans are engaged for them on the cheapest cost of the machines, because they are the people to live independently. But it is not possible for them


jim:-:”Or the money could be divided among everyone to support them in doing what they want to do.”



Ayub:-let them distribute the money what they earned through them, because they will never control them on the strength of money or muscle. Humans will work for more than the mechanical relations. So they should know on their own.

jim:-“I will repeat something from previously. One way to organize a fully automated economy would be to require that owners pay their machines a salary based on how many humans each machine displaces. Since the machines would have no use for the money, it would be entirely taxed into a government pool by a robot, or machine, income tax. Some of the money would be diverted to other government functions, but most of it would be equally divided among everyone. The corporate owners would still be making a profit, so they would have a higher income. However, that would do no harm as long as everyone else would be free to do what they want.”



Ayub:-the development of the mechanical relations in corporate level would be equally applied to all the human beings, if they engaged these in addition to the machines. Human will cost them more than the machines. Because no mechanical work is complete unless it has the human touch and its supervision in it’s functioning.


jim:-“To encourage research, people who did research could be paid a bit extra on top of their share. It might not be necessary to subsidize the Arts because people would be earning extra money from sales.”



Ayub:- not sure of its claim

jim:-“What would the wealthy do with their money? They wouldn't need very much of the money for living expenses so they would no doubt spend money on things like buying expensive art works from one another, buying expensive jewelry from one another, etc. They could go off in a corner and do that, and it would do no harm to everyone else”



Ayub:- this is the big question to the minds of the human beings but not for the MACHINES which wants earn, earn and earn like a machines , because the corporate people are nothing but the machines, machines would never seek the associations of machines. Hence human are above the machines.



ayub mohammed

--- On Sat, 19/9/09, jfnewell7 wrote:



From: jfnewell7
Subject: [WorldCitizen] Re: is capitalism permanent ?
To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 19 September, 2009, 7:03 AM


It certainly could be a problem as you suggest. It depends on how a fully automated system is shaped.

On the one hand, all the money could go to the owners of the automated corporations, and then they would hire everyone else as personal servants. for the pleasure of having personal servants to control. A corporations owner could employ a dozen or so gardeners, a dozen or so maids, etc.

Or the money could be divided among everyone to support them in doing what they want to do.

I will repeat something from previously. One way to organize a fully automated economy would be to require that owners pay their machines a salary based on how many humans each machine displaces. Since the machines would have no use for the money, it would be entirely taxed into a government pool by a robot, or machine, income tax. Some of the money would be diverted to other government functions, but most of it would be equally divided among everyone. The corporate owners would still be making a profit, so they would have a higher income. However, that would do no harm as long as everyone else would be free to do what they want.

To encourage research, people who did research could be paid a bit extra on top of their share. It might not be necessary to subsidize the Arts because people would be earning extra money from sales.

What would the wealthy do with their money? They wouldn't need very much of the money for living expenses so they would no doubt spend money on things like buying expensive art works from one another, buying expensive jewelry from one another, etc. They could go off in a corner and do that, and it would do no harm to everyone else.

Jim

--- In WorldCitizen@ yahoogroups. com, "Gary Shepherd" wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> The underlying controversy between the capitalist and socialist systems
> is, as I understand it, the ownership of the means of production. And
> that will remain a problem regardless of how much of the labor is
> performed by machines. I suspect the merger of the two systems is
> already underway, and we just haven't realized it yet.
>
>
>
> In any case, we aren't going to be able to perfect social or economic
> systems until we get rid of the enormous drag that the
> nationalist- militarist political system imposes on society. It skews
> everything. As I like to point out, if you combine socialism with
> nationalism what you inevitably get is national socialism.
>
>
>
> World Peace and Unity,
> Gary
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: WorldCitizen@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:WorldCitizen@ yahoogroups. com]
> On Behalf Of jfnewell7
> Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 3:41 PM
> To: WorldCitizen@ yahoogroups. com
> Subject: [WorldCitizen] Re: is capitalism permanent ?
>
>
>
>
>
> Mistake 1: Both capitalist and socialist systems tend to easily become
> corrupt. That problem has to be solved for either system to work.
>
> Mistake 2: Neither capitalism nor socialism is adequately adaptable. We
> have rapidly increasing automation, but both capitalism and socialism
> are based on societies of more than 100 years ago where human labor was
> much more important. Those systems fail to the extent that human labor
> becomes increasingly unimportant because more is done by machines.
>
> I want to be tentative about this, but what I think we are looking for
> is a new system which combines the best attributes of capitalism and the
> best attributes of socialism, in a way which solves the above problems.
> One might call what we need a post-labor economic system, with
> post-labor being a variable which changes as automation advances.
>
> Therefore, groups of people need to get together to try to create ideas
> relating to what such a system would be.
>
> We need to do a lot of new, creative thinking.
>
> Jim
>
> --- In WorldCitizen@ yahoogroups. com
> , ayub mohammed
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Marxism, as a theory and practicable task and goal for many states and
> its people, holding it in the hands in millions all over the world like
> a torch to quell the darkness of the poverty from their lives, marched
> years together with a hope for the liberation from all the problems they
> have in their lives for the socialism, now the majority of the people
> have been desisted it and do not like even to utter it in their daily
> lives in recent years after the failures in USSR, in CHINA. As a result
> the USA has emerged the single strongest state to rule the world in its
> own way what it thinks fit on the different names, world peace or war on
> terror. At the same time the USA itself is now under economic depression
> and striving to recover from recession and going to loose its legacy in
> coming years in the hands of new states in the same way of open market
> and global reforms. The same kind of the treatment what it has given to
> the other states in its past history
> > after its independence, is going to receive in the same way. Now it
> has already started such wounds to its body to receive from others. The
> history has so many such instances of rise and decline of the dynasties
> in the world from the biblical period to the present conditions. So here
> one question is in the minds of millions of the people globally that the
> capitalism is the only stable state of condition of the world states
> irrespective of considering their development to the level of capitalist
> societies the present developing countries. And has it no further
> progress of the social states from capitalism to socialism? Is the
> socialism dead? Is capitalism permanent state of social condition of
> state? The capitalism may have three or four types in its execution and
> in its administration in the world. And some people are still waging the
> wars in their states in some specific pockets on the hope that they
> achieve the socialism and their people will get some
> > relief from their problems through the philosophy of Marxism and its
> other extended philosophies of Leninism and Maoism. So are these
> philosophies still have the worth and validity as philosophies in these
> days to achieve the greatest task of socialism? Where have the mistakes
> in application of them to the present societies? Whether in practice or
> in its theory? So let us start the process of re-examination of Marxism
> so as to save it from the dying state and before it has been erased from
> the list of living philosophies of the world, without considering the
> criticisms from the same circles who would call it revisionism.
> >
> > Ayub mohammed
> > Moderator
> > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/political_ analysts/
> >
> >
> > See the Web's breaking stories, chosen by people like you. Check out
> Yahoo! Buzz.
> >
> >
> >

W hat are T he Alternatives to the capitalism and its trailer Marxism?

Marxism, as a theory and practicable task and goal for many states and its people holding it in the hands in millions all over the world like a torch to quell the darkness of the poverty from their lives, marched years together with a hope for the liberation from all the problems they have in their lives for the socialism, now the majority of the people have been desisted it and do not like even to utter it in their daily lives in recent years after the failures in USSR, in CHINA. As a result the USA has emerged the single strongest state to rule the world in its own way what it thinks fit on the different names, world peace or war on terror. At the same time the USA itself is now under economic depression and striving to recover from recession and going to loose its legacy in coming years in the hands of new states in the same way of open market and global reforms. The same kind of the treatment what it has given to the other states in its past history after its independence, is going to receive in the same way. Now it has already started such wounds to its body to receive from others. The history has so many such instances of rise and decline of the dynasties in the world from the biblical period to the present conditions. So here one question is in the minds of millions of the people globally that the capitalism is the only stable state of condition of the world states irrespective of considering their development to the level of capitalist societies of the present developing countries. And has it no further progress of the social states from capitalism to socialism? Is the socialism dead? Is capitalism permanent state of social condition of state?So let us examine the credibility of Marxism from all aspects what we believe to change lives of the people from its dialectics to the word communism. All are here by requested to share in my hard and difficult effort.
Ayub Mohammed
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/political_analysts/

my replies and responses in groups and in its arguements on marxism 3

Re: [Stalinist] re marxismThursday, 23 August, 2007 10:49 AM
From: "ayub mohammed" View contact detailsTo: Stalinist@yahoogroups.com

A valid scientific test on the Marxism was carried out twice with
the gap of 32 years in Russia and in china under the great
leadership of Lenin and Mao during their lifetime. Since then only
repeats and applications of the same old content on ever changing
societies and on states like out dated capsules to the patients. So
why the Marxism failed and reduced to the defensive stage against
the capitalists as it is the question always remind me to think
about it for right applications under the proletariat leadership.
Interpretation of historical materialism should have defects so that
society is in the progress of its own way deviating the lines of
materialism what I say about the theory and its applicability. The
next is class struggle, which (was and) is a part of other principal
players that leads the society towards progress through the
struggles in which the class struggle forms only a part, not as a
whole as Marxism states. The nature of proletariat class is static
and unchanged as a whole but its formation and emergence is very
different from time to time, as it has been depended upon `work'
only avoiding the thoughts and needs of the so called proletariat
class.

In Stalinist@yahoogrou ps.com, blood hound
wrote:
>
> It ia not a question of beleiving. It is a question of valid
scientific tests and one of those is on the question of class
struggle. The issue is the Dictatorship of the proletariat or
capitalist democracy.On the score of continueing the dictatorship
and the Syatem of peoples governments then China still comes out in
a plus.
> Whether the development will remain depends on the outcome of the
struggle.
> At this stage the Imperialists are much cleverer then Stalin's
little Kittens.
>
> Those who have yet to participate in the struggle can confine
themselves to book learning and rote repeating. My experience so far
is that a fundamental condition of revisionism is the deNouncement
of the dictatorship of the Proletariat. Which is unfortunately part
of the problem aflicting many western parties. The other is to not
understand the mechanisms of the class struggle and the problems of
parties in power.There are many mistakes that ruling parties can
make before loss of power. The ultimate thing that historical
materialism has delivered is that for socialism to be overcome the
ruling communist party must be removed from power. It is not over
until this is done this the imperialists know and so should we.
> Slammerguy123@ ... wrote: 15 now.
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
can u say the reaons for failure of marxism in america, uk, germany
europe ,mid-east and in asia exactly ? just enjoy in the fools
paradise which was lost long ago . now it is the duty of every
marxist to ready and apply it to the conditions of every state for
the same purpose of proletatariat dictatorship. ...

In Stalinist@yahoogrou ps.com, blood hound
wrote:
>
> It ia not a question of beleiving. It is a question of valid
scientific tests and one of those is on the question of class
struggle. The issue is the Dictatorship of the proletariat or
capitalist democracy.On the score of continueing the dictatorship
and the Syatem of peoples governments then China still comes out in
a plus.
> Whether the development will remain depends on the outcome of the
struggle.
> At this stage the Imperialists are much cleverer then Stalin's
little Kittens.
>
> Those who have yet to participate in the struggle can confine
themselves to book learning and rote repeating. My experience so far
is that a fundamental condition of revisionism is the deNouncement
of the dictatorship of the Proletariat. Which is unfortunately part
of the problem aflicting many western parties. The other is to not
understand the mechanisms of the class struggle and the problems of
parties in power.There are many mistakes that ruling parties can
make before loss of power. The ultimate thing that historical
materialism has delivered is that for socialism to be overcome the
ruling communist party must be removed from power. It is not over
until this is done this the imperialists know and so should we.
> Slammerguy123@ ... wrote: 15 now.
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [Stalinist] re-examination of marxismWednesday, 1 August, 2007 5:04 PM
From: "ayub mohammed" View contact detailsTo: Stalinist@yahoogroups.comIt is a part of ‘belief’ of those who love Marxism without observing the changing conditions and contradictions of the society of any particular state, u too like to see it as a crap. Ok I have no problem but it is a problem of the people, who are helpless in the hands of oppression, looking at the leaders of for some of relief, on the promises makes by both leftist and rightists in every state and in every society. Let me ask you some questions about your mail contending that the Marxism is a science and evolves with the struggles. Next, the word ‘degeneration’ of leadership you uses liberally which indicated a basic failure in its advancement and progress to lead the Russian society forward. It means the leadership certainly depending factor on the individuals and their capabilities. The question will lead the mind of those who are in such deep thinking towards the qualities of leadership and its essentialities to lead the masses in that particular society within the
state on applying their minds to assess and analyze the situation that should match the aspirations of the people as well as all sections including proletariat class. These questions are raised on from the first paragraph of you response only. I do not like to blame any leader, political party, but want to check why was the situation that demanded the communist party to surrender itself before such people and leaders who entered into a party through any way and on any claim. It is also a subject to understand the contradictions and major contradiction within that society and state where the mind and need of the people was ever changing irrespective of the political system which was dominated by the communist party. This is not a case on Russia, but it is a matter of china, and the erstwhile socialist block including the latest development of the Nepal. We have spent a lot of time in applying the Marxism to the states and societies that have its own ways irrespective
observations and comments of the Marxists who have their own way to analyze and apply their thought on the moving and changing societies. Then again the question will arise whose failure is this in understanding the Marxism on the societies and states. Then I say it is the Marxism, which is not yet developed to understand the societies and states to lead towards its goal..
thank you
ayub mohammed

blood hound wrote: what utter crap

Marxism is a living science and it has evovled with the struggles.
The degeneration of the Soviet Leadership and their embrace of Western Liberalism and then capitalist Democracy over the advanced form of the Democratic Dictatorship of the Proletariat was at the source of this degeneartion.

We need to stop throwing dust in our own eyes and understand this. It is not the mistake of this or that leader but the class embrace. The Fact that Gorbachev was a Liberal Democrat and not a communist that he was able to transform the Dictatorship of the proltariat and peasantry into the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie.

This was because the corruption of the party by capitalist elements was very strong and that the ideological weakening of the party grew out of the overestimation of American Democracy and the failures to develop and strengthen Soviet Democracy.

This is apparent because of the inability of the party to deal with the corrupt elements such as Shevednadzi. A whole layer of leaders self promoting their own and the selection by the party and the struggle subordinated.

The failure to develop socialism will be rewarded with the anilation of the species. Do not dispare though it is not over. Despite sectarian errors against each other thye communist movement is once again recovering and moveing to understand the new realities and to shape and struggle for the future of humanity.

Less Looking back and more looking forward. Tremendous movements of the worlds peoples are developing in our current world and like communists of previous generations we must move to the front of these movements shape and lead them. Lend them na organised character and develop them towards human liberation.
david

ayub mohammed wrote: ayub mohammed wrote: Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 21:10:01
+0100 (BST)
From: ayub mohammed
Subject: re-examination of marxism.
To: thenewwave06@ ..., ayyub Mohammed

Since last 25 years what I have seen the most from the Marxist
writers who
replies and applies to the changing conditions of the society,
state, religion,
human nature, science and technological progress from Sumerians to
Indians to
Mayans civilizations, from the past writings of Karl Marx, angels,
Lenin, and
Mao only constantly without analyzing the exact nature of society and
composition with its relative factors. Though after lapse of 58
years from the
date of success of Chinese revolution, no result the Indian
communists got in
such a way of revolution as the Russians and Chinese succeeded, and
keeps the
routine every time what they always produces tones of pages of the
references of
the writers on the revolution. Now it is treated by the most of the
people in
majority countries that the Marxism is failed theory and do not have
scope to
apply in the present society and the states where the practices of
Marxists too
do not have any validity in securing the power of the
state either through the force or the elections. Hence all the
Marxist writers
and revolutionaries should reexamine the theory of Marxism, Leninism
and Mao
thoughts thoroughly for the validity of its philosophical status in
accordance
with the time of its formulations for further applicability as a
philosophy to
the changing nature of the social elements and its relations with
special
reference to the state and the human nature. Because Marxism should
be seen as
the instrument of emancipation of all exploitations to restore human
dignity and
prosperity of the poor people for which i humbly request all those
who are
concerned with the content for re-examining the whole marxism.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

my replies and responses in groups and in its arguements on marxism 2

Re: [Stalinist] Re: re marxismSaturday, 1 September, 2007 12:00 AM
From: "ayub mohammed" View contact detailsTo: Stalinist@yahoogroups.comi agree with you. whoever is talking should address his people of his own country.

aung incredible wrote: first of all we must have one policy, should not have many policies such as leninism,stalinism, maoism.

and we need to unite...

and we need to change the revolution types.

most of communist revolution hold the arm struggle. and demand for mass people support. without mass people support they cant do anything already. we dont actually need arm struggle for socialist revolution.

another thing is they dont take world people as mass people, they take their own country people as their mass people..

and another thing is dictatorship and democracy, communists wrongly use dictatorship in wrong people and wrong place

these are the some big mistakes for marxists and communists followers.

ayub mohammed wrote:
---

Dear comrade,
Your detailed contents on Marxism, capitalism, reversal of Hegelian
materialism by Marx, shows that you are claiming that the whole
Marxism is a science and still applicable to the conditions of all
societies and all problems in the society, that is why you are very
proud on calling all these isolated names from the main streams of
the subjects such as Marxist sociologist, Marxist,
historians, Marxist ecologists, Marxist doctor, Marxist engineer,
etc. but I am not happy over such brandings and callings, because it
has been seen that these people are in isolation from the main
stream of such fields in any state and in any society in the
interest of Marxism which has to lead the whole as one and alone
under the same command and zeal of the party as an instrument for
execution of Marxism for making success the revolution every where
whether it is u.s, u.k, or Europe or India or it is mid-east.
Just I want to ask you only one direct question about Marxism and
its applicability to the present form of capitalism in u,s, uk,
Europe, mid-east and most of the remaining parts of the globe in
general and in India in particular, that
Why the Marxism, Leninism, and Maoism have failed in establishing
the socialist states in these regions?
A basic condition as per Marxist philosophy developed by Lenin that
there should be one revolutionary party that should have
revolutionary theory to lead the society towards socialism in any
state.
I have checked all these regions for such revolutionary parties
engaged in the task of revolution and found that no party is in a
position to lead the masses like in Russia, and china in the past
any where in the world. Because I believe that the Marxism is a
philosophy of all times and all the way in all societies as it is up
to Mao but it should be developed according to the changing needs
and thoughts of the people and I have no doubt about its
applications and definitions in the past and I feel that it needs
new and latest version in mobilizing the masses towards socialism
unlike democratic socialism, and state socialism. Moreover I do not
want the Marxism be drowned in the past in the line of its great
comment on the past history and society ' so many can say about the
society, but the question is how to change it'
In Stalinist@yahoogrou ps.com, marxist front
wrote:
>
> Dear Comrade
>
> My two cents for the question raised by you
>
> Thanks for receiving my posts positively.
>
>
> Marxism as an ideology of the human society including economic
relations in the production oriented theory, which was written
during the capitalist societies, beside feudal, and slave systems of
the past of the societies.
>
> >>>>>Marx and subsequently Lenin and other leaders and Ideologue
have dealt in detail not only about capitalist society but various
facets of social science, that concerns humankind. that is why we
have Marxist Sociologist, Marxist historian, and even Marxist
Ecologist(?) today.
>
> Basically what I am trying to elucidate is that Marx and the
science of Marxism has dealt with the various issues facing the
humankind, Marx(and of course Engels) in his writing dealt with wide
range of issue through the now famous Dialectical Materialism
methodology, though Marx neither Engels (I may stand corrected)
never used the term to define their approach of study. Unlike other
philosophers of his time and even earlier Marx discarded rather took
head on with the various school of philosophy based on metaphysical
realm and solely dedicated himself and his work on the materialistic
conception of philosophy. (Remember the famous quote of Marx where
said that he took Hegelian concept head on and putting the Hegalian
dialectics on to its feet).
>
> Although written in the post-industrial period Marx concerned
himself with the development of History since the time what he
termed as Primitive Communism. Marx took the mode of production as
one of the key feature to distinguish one society from another (i.e.
feudalism with primitive communism and then the emergence of
capitalism). The bourgeoisie philosophers and the protagonists of
Liberalism have been jumping all over claiming that some of the
features and analysis of Marx particularly when dealing with the non
European particularly Asiatic mode of production to have some
serious gaps and lapses, but we have to appreciate the work in light
of severe dearth of information and limitations put by the then
colonial power to present the history of the colonies in a distorted
way. Even after this Marx and Engles were the first to term the war
of 1857 in India as a war of liberation, which took the Indian and
so called nationalist historians almost a century to accept.
>
> Limitation of space in this post stops me from going into
details on the various Mode of production and its use that we find
in the insightful assessment of capitalist Mode of Production(CMP)
made by Marx. for Marx the chief characteristic of CMP is that it
has turned everything in commodity and the replacement of need based
value with exchange based value. while analysing this process he
came across what in his own word is his greatest contribution to
Political Economy ----that of surplus Value(SV). The SV becomes the
hallmark of CMP unlike the previous mode of production where it was
circumvented. But in CMP SV is the source of capital's growth and
mobility which found expression in the famous formula
(M...C....P. ...C'...M' ) of circulation of Capital.
>
> So this gives capital mobility and the sap on which the edifice
of CMP exists. This constant pursuit of capital to beget more money
and create more capital is the root of all capitalist evil, its
conversion into blood sucking monster(to paraphrase Rosa Luxembourg).
>
> The Marx's writings were materialized in practical way of
revolution in Russia under the leadership of Lenin that was seen as
an advanced stage of world societies to follow the same way of the
Russia. Consequently china was succeeded under the command of Mao.
It was also stated further that the single state of revolutionary
forces would never be succeeded unless all the states of the world
get revolution that was stated during the lifetime of Lenin and Mao.
>
> According to my understanding what you are pointing to is the
debate of "socialism in one country" which was supported by Stalin
and the Communist Party (Bolshevik) and Trotsky's assumption that
Socialism should be developed world over by instigating series of
world wide revolt (Theory of Permanent Revolution). This is an old
debate and world over the Communist have pondered over the correct
line. Those supporting of building a socialist state seems to be
having more practical approach than the latter. In fact if Lenin and
even Mao had waited for that elusive world wide proletarian
revolution then we never would have been seen the culmination of
Marxian theory in Practical in form of the establishment of Soviet
Union.
>
> In fact a point worth remembering is that even Marx and Engles
had supported the establishment of Paris Commune of 1871, that if
considered against a strict theoretical approach was then a
localised event amidst the great European churning. Here Marx termed
the Commune as vindication of Communistic ideas, and did not condemn
it as an adventurist approach, since it did not wait for the
worldwide revolution! Similarly Lenin decried the Menshevik's
dilemma of whether to take control of the Provincial government and
proceeded to give the clarion call of workers control and formation
of Proletarian state, though it was considered by the Mensheviks and
others as a dangerous and adventurous step bound to fail.
>
> So to wait for that elusive liberator to come and deliver, would
be nothing but suicidal for the Communist Revolutionaries world
over and it cannot be justified that the CR groups/parties wait with
indefinite patience for the force of history to formant the world
wide revolution.
>
>
> In essence Marxism is a living theory of revolutionizing the
world.
>
> I full agree with you Marxism, is perhaps the only philosophy
that is action oriented and not in search of some metaphysical
paranormal entity as haze been the case with other philosophies. It
has been created and is devoted to understand what is happening in
front of us not not what will happen in the next world or on the day
of judgment.
>
> Now a question will arise how long the capitalism will exist in
the world. Secondly already more than 300 years have been passed
after emergence of capitalism in rough estimation in the history and
evolution of the societies in the world. According to Marx the next
stage in the society is socialism for which a revolutionary party is
needed to revolutionize the masses in any state under the leadership
of proletariat class to liberate the people from oppression.So the
question is remained as it was that how to do that and the same
capitalist societies are existing in the same capitalism which is
diversifying the societies into individualism and anarchism.
>
> How many days more Capitalism will stay that only an
occult/soothsayer can predict and unfortunately Communists are
neither, but one thing that can be definitely said is that
capitalism will not be forever, that is for sure. the periodic
crises, the destruction of diversity and the increasing ferocity of
the speed of capital all points out that it is already on its path
of destruction. When Berlin wall was raised from its rubble Francis
Fukuyama has proclaimed end of history and Capital's immortal
triumph. But within a decade his prophesy proved to be nothing but
another smokescreen emanating from yet another bourgeoisie
soothsayer.
>
> The Communist movement unlike other movement is a movement of
the majority and when your aim is big then your path will also be
meandering sworn with thorns. Let us not forget the fact that CR is
up against the most powerful and deceitful class that has emerged in
social history. It now masquerades like a saint giving doles to some
here and robbing and plundering other somewhere else. Its power is
enormous and tact's unfathomable but bourgeois carries within itself
its seed of destruction and its grave diggers.
>
> What is of vital concern to MLists is to understand the process
of the unfolding patters of Capitalism and its various avatars.
>
> Above all the basic concern of Marx was not an academic
intellectual pursuit, but in his extant text there is an overt call,
a desire for change. even in Capital which is primarily a treatise
of the origin development and working of the bourgeoisie/ CMP
the "agenda" of the author is sparklingly clear. The class struggle
and the class anger is too discernable to be ignored.
>
> I just read this wonderful statement from Lenin where he said:
> " Marx and Engels were the first to show that the working
class and its demands are a necessary outcome of the present
economic system, which together with the bourgeoisie inevitably
creates and organises the proletariat. They showed that it is not
the well-meaning efforts of noble-minded individuals, but the class
struggle of the organised proletariat that will deliver humanity
from the evils which now oppress it. In their scientific works, Marx
and Engels were the first to explain that socialism is not the
invention of dreamers, but the final aim and necessary result of the
development of the productive forces in modern society. All recorded
history hitherto has been a history of class struggle, of the
succession of the rule and victory of certain social classes over
others. And this will continue until the foundations of class
struggle and of class domination – private property and anarchic
social production – disappear. The interests of the proletariat
demand the
> destruction of these foundations, and therefore the conscious
class struggle of the organised workers must be directed against
them. And every class struggle is a political struggle. "
>
>
>
> I want your paper. Please send it.
> I will be sending you in next post.
> Regards
> P
>
>
> ayub mohammed wrote:
>
> Thanks for receiving my posts positively. Marxism as an ideology
of
> the human society including economic relations in the production
> oriented theory, which was written during the capitalist
societies,
> beside feudal, and slave systems of the past of the societies. The
> Marx's writings were materialized in practical way of revolution
in
> Russia under the leadership of Lenin that was seen as an advanced
> stage of world societies to follow the same way of the Russia.
> Consequently china was succeeded under the command of Mao. It was
> also stated further that the single state of revolutionary forces
> would never be succeeded unless all the states of the world get
> revolution that was stated during the lifetime of Lenin and Mao.
In
> essence Marxism is a living theory of revolutionizing the world.
Now
> a question will arise how long the capitalism will exist in the
> world. Secondly already more than 300 years have been passed after
> emergence of capitalism in rough estimation in the history and
> evolution of the societies in the world. According to Marx the
next
> stage in the society is socialism for which a revolutionary party
is
> needed to revolutionize the masses in any state under the
leadership
> of proletariat class to liberate the people from oppression. So
the
> question is remained as it was that how to do that and the same
> capitalist societies are existing in the same capitalism which is
> diversifying the societies into individualism and anarchism. I
want
> your paper. Please send it.
>
> In Stalinist@yahoogrou ps.com, marxist front
> wrote:
> >
> > DO you think what failed in USSR was socialism... ...
> > Unlike other ideologies/politica l thinking marxism has been
> formulated keeping with a goal of changing the very basis of the
> existing society(i.e Capitalist) along with the mode of production.
> >
> > From ur text it seems u are in doubt of validity of Marxism and
> its analysis. FYI now more and more bourgeoisie economist
> particluarl; y from the first world are turning once again into
> reading Marx and Capital. Infact few years ago the Financial Times
> caried an article called "Das Capital Revisited"
> >
> > In this era of globalisation Marx and his ideas have become even
> more relevant.
> > I have just completed a paper on this subject called "Marx and
> Globalisation" . If you wish I can send it to you offlist. If you
> wish to have discussion on this subject we can take it offline.
> >
> > My some of previous mails were censored by the Moderators of
this
> list who thought that it is not relevant to the preamble of this
> List. Hence I am taking this liberty of copying you directly.
> >
> > Revo Greetings
> > M F (India)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ayub mohammed wrote: A
> valid scientific test on the Marxism was carried out twice with
> > the gap of 32 years in Russia and in china under the great
> > leadership of Lenin and Mao during their lifetime. Since then
> only
> > repeats and applications of the same old content on ever
changing
> > societies and on states like out dated capsules to the patients.
> So
> > why the Marxism failed and reduced to the defensive stage
against
> > the capitalists as it is the question always remind me to think
> > about it for right applications under the proletariat
leadership.
> > Interpretation of historical materialism should have defects so
> that
> > society is in the progress of its own way deviating the lines of
> > materialism what I say about the theory and its applicability.
> The
> > next is class struggle, which (was and) is a part of other
> principal
> > players that leads the society towards progress through the
> > struggles in which the class struggle forms only a part, not as
a
> > whole as Marxism states. The nature of proletariat class is
> static
> > and unchanged as a whole but its formation and emergence is very
> > different from time to time, as it has been depended upon `work'
> > only avoiding the thoughts and needs of the so called
proletariat
> > class.
> >
> > In Stalinist@yahoogrou ps.com, blood hound
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > It ia not a question of beleiving. It is a question of valid
> > scientific tests and one of those is on the question of class
> > struggle. The issue is the Dictatorship of the proletariat or
> > capitalist democracy.On the score of continueing the
dictatorship
> > and the Syatem of peoples governments then China still comes out
> in
> > a plus.
> > > Whether the development will remain depends on the outcome of
> the
> > struggle.
> > > At this stage the Imperialists are much cleverer then Stalin's
> > little Kittens.
> > >
> > > Those who have yet to participate in the struggle can confine
> > themselves to book learning and rote repeating. My experience so
> far
> > is that a fundamental condition of revisionism is the
> deNouncement
> > of the dictatorship of the Proletariat. Which is unfortunately
> part
> > of the problem aflicting many western parties. The other is to
> not
> > understand the mechanisms of the class struggle and the problems
> of
> > parties in power.There are many mistakes that ruling parties can
> > make before loss of power. The ultimate thing that historical
> > materialism has delivered is that for socialism to be overcome
> the
> > ruling communist party must be removed from power. It is not
over
> > until this is done this the imperialists know and so should we.
> > > Slammerguy123@ wrote: 15 now.
> > >
> > > ************ ********* ********* ******** Get a sneak peek of the
> > all-new AOL at
> > > http://discover. aol.com/memed/ aolcom30tour
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------ --------- --------- ---
> > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels
> with
> > Yahoo! FareChase.
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------ --------- --------- ---
> > Try the revolutionary next-gen Yahoo! Mail. Click here.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
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my replies and responses in groups and in its arguements on marxism

From: "ayub mohammed" View contact detailsTo: MAOIST_REVOLUTION@yahoogroups.com

Islamic fundamentalism rose from the debris of the communist block against capitalism both internally and externally in all most all the states of the globe. Communist block whether it is communist block or social imperialist block whatever we call it was miserably failed to attract the third world states on a common platform against American imperialism, on the other hand the people did not come on organized way against its states to fight against the American capitalism and its ruling agents during the cold war days and even now too. Fundamentalism itself is not magnet to attract the people on its own like a piece of magnet, but it is a philosophy of extreme ambition of changing the general habits and character of the individuals on the basis books of religion where all types of people comes together to do something for some period. Having such thoughts in the mind of individuals would be alive in every society whether its is Iraq and Afghanisthan when the alternative and useful thought are absent in a state where the specific need is apparent and openly demanding the people to fight against evil forces back to their barracks. In these circumstances, the revolutionary forces and its party should offer the best choice of useful alternatives in the parallel way to the people of Iraq without hurting the religious faith and belief of their day-to-day life because the fundamentalism is only a thought but the revolutionary is not only a thought but material benefit also both in long and short periods.





Henri Cames wrote:

I disagree completely. The Line taken by Sunsara

Taylor of the Revolutionary Communist Party, USA --

the USA member of the Revolutionary Internationalist

Movement is correct.



The forces in Iraq are thoroughly reactionary, they

preach a ideology which is almost as oppressive to the

masses of people as imperialism. Islamic

Fundamentalists do not believe in woman's rights,

Islamic fundamentalists see gay people as being nearly

subhuman in the vast majority of cases, most

importantly, Islamic fundamentalists have historically

slaughtered Communists and labor organizers upon their

seizure of power



This is not a progressive anti-imperialist resistance.

What it is, is a force which re-enforces imperialism.

Fundamentalism has grown tremendously as a result of

US imperialism in the region, and US plans of hegemony

have gone forward by scaring the american masses into

submission to avoid another 9/11.



What Iraq and Afghanistan need is New Democratic

Revolution. In both places, we are actually seeing the

foundational works for such a revolution being formed.



While the Stalin quote is fundamentally correct, this

is not nearly the same case as the emir didn't

reenforce british imperialism as islamic

fundamentalism does.



you claim that both of these countries have been

permanently scared from communist revolution, I

disagree. in Afghanistan right now the base work for

people's war is being layed and in Iraq recently a

marxist/left nationalist resistance group announced is

formation after killing three US troops in urban

warfare



--- wprm britain wrote:



> Written by Harry Powell

> Source: MAOIST_REVOLUTION@ yahoogroups. com

>

> The recent exchange of views between Hadas Thier

> and Aaron Hess of the American Socialist Worker and

> Sunsara Taylor of the Revolutionary Communist

> Party, (USA) highlight the need for a correct MLM

> evaluation of the character of the resistance to

> imperialist occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan and

> the correct position for people in the imperialist

> countries to adopt. The positions taken up by both

> sides in this exchange are confused.

>

> The Leninist approach to evaluating opposition to

> imperialism by people in dominated countries was

> outlined by Joseph Stalin in The Foundations of

> Leninism. Writing in 1924, he argued that the most

> important aspect of a movement opposed to

> imperialism is its objective impact on the situation

> and not its subjective intentions which are

> secondary. One example he gave was of the feudal

> Emir of Afghanistan who was actively opposing

> attempts by the British Labour Government to

> dominate his country. In ideology the Emir and his

> associates were reactionary while the Labour Party

> Government which was trying to oppress the Afghani

> people claimed to be "socialist". Stalin pointed

> out that that the actions of the Emir were in the

> interests of oppressed people around the world while

> the Labourites were actively striving to defend

> British imperialism. Incidentally it was this same

> Labour Government who ordered the Royal Air Force to

> drop poisonous gas on Iraq Kurds thus getting

> the edge on Saddam Hussein by many decades.

>

> It is true that the armed resistance in Afghanistan

> and Iraq to imperialist occupation is being waged

> by reactionary groups such as various Islamists and

> in the case of the Baathists, by fascists. It is

> also true that these elements - disunited and

> engaged in murderous strife with each other - have

> bogged down the invading American and British

> forces and completely disrupted their plans to

> exploit the people and their resources. In doing so

> they have performed a service to the people of the

> world by making it much more difficult to carry

> further their expansionist plans as with their

> designs on Iran. The Iraqi and Afghani people have

> paid a terrible price for their defiance of

> imperialism but at least they are dying on their

> feet rather than living on their knees. While they

> can frustrate the imperialists' plans these

> religious and reactionary groups are incapable of

> uniting the great mass of the people in their

> countries to decisively defeat imperialism and

> begin to build a decent life. Nonetheless the

> objective impact of their actions is largely

> positive from a revolutionary point of view.

>

> Socialists and communists should ask themselves why

> there are not any Marxist groups waging significnt

> armed struggle in these countries. The answer in

> the case of Iraq is that in the nineteen fifties

> when the Iraq Communist Party which had a mass

> following was poised to take power it backed off

> under orders from the revisionist Nikita Khrushchev

> in Moscow. Within a few years the Bhaathists backed

> by the CIA had seized power and the ICP was

> discredited in the eyes of the people. In

> Afghanistan the murderous invasion of the Soviet

> Union in 1979 discredited socialism for Afghanis and

> gave rise to Islamic fundamentalism encouraged by

> Western imperialism. Comrades, perhaps we should be

> less quick to condemn non-socialist resistance to

> imperialism and be more ready to engage in

> self-criticism about the failings of our own

> movement to lead the people in these countries.

>

> Thier and Hess play down the reactionary side of

> Islam as do their comrades in the Socialist Worker

> Party in Britain. While it is true that just like

> Christianity there are many different variants of

> Islam, some more reactionary than others, they are

> all oppressive and exploitative in their impact on

> people's lives. It is opportunism that leads these

> neo-Trotskyites to gloss over objectionable

> positions such as anti-Semitism. In Britain the SWP

> has turned a blind eye to the oppression of women in

> Muslim communities in order to try to drum up some

> support for their Respect electoral front. In has

> not worked because the Muslims they seek to con are

> not half so daft. Socialists and communists should

> endeavour to work with Muslims and other religious

> people but in a principled way. We should make

> explicitly clear what are our political differences

> are and not gloss them over.

>

> Sunsara Taylor focuses exclusively on the

> reactionary ideology of Islam and ignores the

> objective impact of Muslim resistance groups on

> weakening the imperialist invaders. They are

> undermining the morale of the American and British

> armed forces and have exposed to the British and

> American people the lies that Blair and Bush told

> us about the Iraqis and Afghanis wanting and

> welcoming imperialist occupation. The resistance to

> the "war on terror" has considerably undermined the

> ideological hegemony of the American and British

> ruling classes.

>

> Only the development of authentic Marxist

> revolutionary parties in these countries can give

> their people a real chance of defeating both

> external and internal reaction. Given past failures

> by revolutionaries this is likely to take a long

> time. In the meantime our position towards the

> armed resistance in Afghanistan and Iraq should be;

> first we support them, only secondarily do we

> criticise them

>

> PEOPLE OF THE WORLD, UNITE AND DEFEAT THE U.S.

> AGGRESSORS AND ALL THEIR LACKEYS!

>

>

>

> ------------ --------- --------- ---

> Juggling multiple email accounts? Why bother?

> Consolidate them all in Yahoo! Mail with our quick,

> easy tool.



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POST ARTICLES TO: MAOIST_REVOLUTION@

Synopsis of the propose book

Synopsis of the proposed book ,on these subjects, dated, Mon, 29/8/05
State:
1.Why did India become a land of invasions and continuing under foreigners rule till present?
2. How does the state change its nature in society since its inception?
3. Why and who forgot the Muslim contributions in independence from the period of its centrality to till present subsided level in present society.
4. Why are the Muslim leaders not able to lead the Muslim masses and people in society after independence and present system of democracy?
5. Why do the Islam turn in the similar line of Hinduism in India?
6. Is the state lost its rigidity in its own transformation into democratic setup, which allows uncontrollable violence led by the state in society? If so, why and when?
7. Do we confirm the nature of the state always dependable factor on the human behaviour which forms the features of the state for its existence?
Religion;
1. Who propounded the religion of Hinduism and how it is developed and why did it take some thousands of years for its complete shape.
2. Who were crueler in Indian History than the Gujarat styled communal offenders?
3. Why does the state and social system of democracy infiltrate the Hindu Fundamentals into the parts of its own state against its potentiality and sustenance?
4. Why the Islam did become Savior of the people from “Manu dharma” in India?
5. Why do the Scheduled Caste scholars and political leaders confine and dub themselves only on caste lines like Dr. B. R. Ambedkar, Babu Jagjeevan Ram and Kanshi Ram whose leadership not accepted and followed by other sections of backward castes, Scheduled Tribes, Muslims and other minorities in India?
6. Why and how the Islam, become practicable in the lives of the people and society while its formulations by Prophet Mohammed and how are these Islamic countries under the name of Islamic states do rule
7. What are the differences in the practising of Islam in India, as per Quran?
8. What is the role of Muslim Clergy in India, in the preaching of Islam?
9. What are the issues and subjects that are not yet decided as impracticable factors in India by the Muslim clergy, under the secular state or so called Hindu religion dominated state.
10. What are the factors responsible for backwardness of Muslims in India, after independence?
Social Forces:1. Why is the political philosophy in India in a great crisis?
2. Are there any different kind of relationship of influence between the base and surface in Indian society?
3. What are the factors playing important role in maintaining the gap between understanding the facts and issues and issue related decisions and actions in the minds of the people in Indian Society?
4. Why did the communist parties become obsolete in application of its philosophy in changing society?
5. What are the parameters to identify the “Progressive elements” in Indian Society?
6. What are the active factors in specifying the development of political economy?
7. What are the noticed and unnoticed contradictions in Indian Society?
8. What are the ways for leading the people and third world countries by taking the support of developed countries against American hegemony?
9. Whether the market for people or the people for world market, capitalism and master players.
10. Why does the Dalit Scholars see the Socialist Culture in the low-class income group of Scheduled Castes in rural areas despite high cultured Scheduled Caste individuals, who does not act differently?
11. What are the ways available and solutions for Dalits, Backward Classes, Scheduled Tribes and Muslims to take different ways of action when they occupy higher levels equivalent to the upper caste people in India?
12. Why the Indian common people are more secular than the political leaders in India?
13. Why does the basic structure of the state and society always influenced by the religion, economy and religious philosophy of Hinduism in the light of super structure and base of the society in India.
14. What are the contributions of the Communist Parties in the country since their formation?15. What are the chances of emergence of guiding philosophical political party in India to establish form and win the state for the cause of proletariat – Agricultural Workers – Middle Class forces in India as in the Indian style of Marxism like USSR, China in the past?
16. How does the proletariat class emerge from the society
17. How does the proletariat class develop to the middle, upper-middle and ruling class in the society in modern days?
18. What are the features and factors of proletariat class in modern changing world?
19. Who are the proletariat class sections in the society under the different names in the modern society?
20. Why does not the proletariat class itself change from its rigidity in modern society? If so, who are the rigid elements in proletariat class and reasons for its rigidity?
21. Who were the proletariat class in China and what the supporting classes were?
22. How do the agricultural workers become vanguard the Chinese Communist Party under Mao’s leadership?
23. What are the confusions in understanding Marx, Lenin and Mao, as they are interlinked in promotion of Marxist Ideology for gaining the political power for proletariat section?International (active)
Forces:
1. Is the globalisation become unavoidable and necessity of the people in India?
2. Whether International power players works on the critical equation of Hinduism, Islam and Christianity in India?
3. Did the people succeed in any period in defeating the king and dislodging the state from outside the jurisdiction without support of any members of the dynasty?
4. What are the alternatives and reformist ways came in the place of Marxist philosophy in contemporary political philosophical crisis in the world with special reference to the capitalism, socialism and anarchism.
Individual Needs and Desires:
1. What are the factors which maintain automatic balancing system of religion in differentiation of the working class and oppressor’s class?
2. Why does the systems theory in the society become in-applicable in Indian Society?
3. What are the factors existing in molding the nature of Indian people in its natural climate and atmosphere.
4. Why is the changing attitude of the people within his family and its impact on the society?5. Why the Indian society and its pace of progress do move on its own way against the other states.
6. How did the nature of sustenance develop in the minds of the people against all kinds of suppressions in all periods and ages?
7. What are the social movements and its impacts in Indian Society?
8. Whether the role of media favors the state?
9. What are the factors leading the people to fight against so called Islamic States and US in Islamic countries?
10. why does the every individual want to find other one lower to serve him and satisfy him that he is the higher than some one lower than to him, and consequently in caste-based religious dominated Hindu society wants to find the Muslim in the last stage of hierarchical settings in India, under “Hinduism”.
11. How does the human nature turn sympathetic towards other human beings at the cost of his ego, dominating nature, exploiting form and personal feelings of capability and his “ism” in society particularly in India?
12. Do we have any other sections in the society other than proletariat and agricultural workers in the changing nature of works in the feudal, capitalist and imperialist India?
13. Why does not the human being who works for production and part of process of production in the society become the progressive element in the Indian Society as a primary factor for its own benefit of itself and family only like the proletariat and agricultural workers in India?
14. What will be the ways before the Marxist Ideologue who applies the philosophy in practise in their respective countries?
15. What are the factors led to misunderstand from the point of base and superstructure as told by Lenin?
16. What kind of elements leading in human being, proletariat, agricultural workers and imperialist forces, to the next advanced stage of economy, power and privilege in Indian society?
Ayub mohammed
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/political_analysts/

Political Analysts Group

Description.
Marxism, as a theory and practicable task and goal for many states and its people holding it in the hands in millions all over the world like a torch to quell the darkness of the poverty from their lives, marched years together with a hope for the liberation from all the problems they have in their lives for the socialism, now the majority of the people have been desisted it and do not like even to utter it in their daily lives in recent years after the failures in USSR, in CHINA. As a result the USA has emerged the single strongest state to rule the world in its own way what it thinks fit on the different names, world peace or war on terror. At the same time the USA itself is now under economic depression and striving to recover from recession and going to loose its legacy in coming years in the hands of new states in the same way of open market and global reforms. The same kind of the treatment what it has given to the other states in its past history after its independence, is going to receive in the same way. Now it has already started such wounds to its body to receive from others. The history has so many such instances of rise and decline of the dynasties in the world from the biblical period to the present conditions. So here one question is in the minds of millions of the people globally that the capitalism is the only stable state of condition of the world states irrespective of considering their development to the level of capitalist societies of the present developing countries. And has it no further progress of the social states from capitalism to socialism? Is the socialism dead? Is capitalism permanent state of social condition of state? The capitalism may have three or four types in its execution and in its administration in the world.So let us examine the credibility of Marxism from all aspects what we believe to change lives of the people from its dialectics to the word communism. All are here by requested to share in my hard and difficult effort
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/political_analysts/